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author | Norbert Preining <norbert@preining.info> | 2019-09-02 13:46:59 +0900 |
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committer | Norbert Preining <norbert@preining.info> | 2019-09-02 13:46:59 +0900 |
commit | e0c6872cf40896c7be36b11dcc744620f10adf1d (patch) | |
tree | 60335e10d2f4354b0674ec22d7b53f0f8abee672 /usergrps/uktug/baskervi/5_2/panel.tex |
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diff --git a/usergrps/uktug/baskervi/5_2/panel.tex b/usergrps/uktug/baskervi/5_2/panel.tex new file mode 100644 index 0000000000..f03d08cc2b --- /dev/null +++ b/usergrps/uktug/baskervi/5_2/panel.tex @@ -0,0 +1,306 @@ +\def\question#1\par{{\noindent\em #1\par}} +\title{Questions and Answers} +\author{compiled by Jonathan Fine} +\begin{Article} +\bgroup +\begin{small} +\def\[#1]{\noindent[{\bf #1}] } +The last session of the Bridewell meeting was a panel comprising +the speakers David Barron \[DB] and Martin Key \[MK], joined by Lou +Burnard \[LB] (Oxford, Text Encoding Initiative) and David Evans \[DE] +(part of David Brailsford's group in Nottingham). The session was +chaired by David Penfold \[DP] from the co-sponsors, the +BCS Electronic Publishing Special Group. + +(I have prepared this report from a not always audible tape +recording. Remarks have been edited. I hope I have not introduced +any error or misrepresentation. Questions have been set in +italics.---Jonathan Fine) + +\question What solutions are there going from one encoding method to +another, say from Microsoft to \LaTeX? + +\[LB] I recommend via SGML as internal format. The public domain tool +Rainbow Makers has an interesting approach. It takes a document +marked up with formatting codes, and turns those codes into SGML +tags. So you do get terrible things such as tags for font and +type-size, but now they are represented using the SGML format. +Translating from that to real SGML is a lot easier. + +\[DP] {\em Word-for-Word\/} has been well used in the publishing +industry for years. It converts between stacks of mainly +word-processor (but also Frame for example) formats. I expect they +will eventually get round to SGML. + +\[Malcolm Clark] +\question +If all I'm interested in is portable documents, in other words +shifting a document from one site to another electronically, why +don't I just standardise on Microsoft Word? It's not high enough +quality for publishing, but for 90\% of what I do, memos and stuff like +that, I do it in Word and attach it to the electronic mail message I +am sending. The recipient at a Windows or Macintosh unbundles it and +they've got it in the same format I created it in. It's solved all +the problems. + +\[LB] Because then you can only talk to people who've done the same +thing. + +\[MK] Several answers. As a company, Elsevier wishes to retain +the material they produce for some considerable time. We still sell +material that is 10 or 20 years old. Microsoft Word as a format is +fine for sending it off today, but in 10 years time, who knows? It +probably won't be compatible with anything. So retaining it in that +format is no use. We have to convert it into something we can do +things with. Secondly, there are limitations with what you can do +with a Word document. Such as how you can search text, specifying +where the author's name is, etc. SGML allows us to structure +the complete document properly. + +\[DB] There is a distinction between portability for immediate +delivery and portability for archiving (see his article). Also, +Warwick University (MC's location) must be different from +Southampton, where no such uniformity exists. For example computer +scientists use \TeX. The problem is like herding sheep to get them +to move in the same direction. + +\[Allan Reese] Word is not a standard, it's a mess. At our site we +have different versions of Word on different platforms, and they have +different and incompatible document formats. The lowest common +denominator of portability is to have the text transmitted from one +place to another. With the Internet this is generally not possible. +As soon as you are using a particular character set lying outside +ASCII you are lost. One example is a text file (produced by a +software company) which was transferred from Mac Word to Win Word +without being checked carefully. The left quote character had come +out as a `O' slash. These funny things happen. Another example is +from Spain, sent to a news group. The sender has the character `\~n' +on his keyboard. He presses this key and it comes out as `\~n' +on the screen. He sends it to me and it comes out as `\$'. +He can't even send the word `Espa\~nol' to the Spanish language news +group! Transmission of text is a big problem which a lot of users +haven't yet tackled. In academic publishing one will have to deal +with multiple character sets, if only to be to accomodate authors' +names. + +\[Jonathan Fine] +\question +Two related questions. Firstly, where will we be in the year 2000? +If we have a meeting here in five years time, what will have +happened? Secondly, if SGML succeeds, what will fail? + +\[LB] In five years time people will talking about Microsoft in rather +the same way we talk about IBM. Remember IBM, they used to make +computers. What will fail will be the forces of the evil empire. +Namely the idea that it is perfectly legal and correct +for any software company or equipment vendor to take information away +from the people who have created it and lock it up in a proprietary +format. That is an idea that I really would like to see the end of. +(Others expressed doubt at the early demise of Microsoft.) + +\[MK] As a publisher, still dependent on paper. Five years is not +very long. Unless an electronic product appears that is really user +friendly to read for any length of time, we will still want paper. +There will be more electronic products, particularly on CD-ROM. In +our environment a lot of specific document formats will probably +fail. Ventura Publisher for example. People will concentrate +on just three or four products eventually. \LaTeX\ and \TeX\ will +still be around, and a few word processors. + +\[Sebastian Rahtz] +\question +A slightly heretical question about maths and chemistry. A lot of +effort has gone into providing DTDs for these things. Perhaps these +will just wither and die. In five years time perhaps we will stop +pretending that math is structured and regard it in the same way as +we regard graphics? Would any one like to defend the SGML markup of +maths? + +\[MK] The only reason it is useful, is that it is independent of +fonts. With \LaTeX\ you are still dependent on the font. When we +combine different articles into a book, we want a uniform appearance. +We don't want a mixture of fonts, otherwise we're back to the +horrible camera ready copy. As for the fact that SGML maths is +structured, I wouldn't particularly want to defend it. + +There was quite some discussion of this from the floor, which the +tape recorder did not clearly pick up. + +\[Dina Desai] +\question +We would like to use SGML markup for our maths. What would you +suggest? + +\[DB] Do you mean what DTD, or what software, or both? {\em What +DTD?} + +(Some information given by Mike Popham about specific math +DTDs.) + +\[Gerard van Nes] +The whole problem with maths and SGML is that we simply need an SGML +editing program which is able to display as we write such +complicated formulae. It is of course very uncomfortable to write +the huge amount of mark-up as one needs for SGML maths. But if you +have a really good SGML editor it's no problem at all. + +\[DB] I would have for maths a single tag, which says \verb"<maths>" +with an attribute which is notation, whose values will obviously be +\verb"tex", \verb"eqn", etc. If you know it's \verb"eqn" or +whatever, it is searchable. You can put hyperlinks into it. + +\question +About DTDs. About compound documents really. Say someone wants a +journal with a video snip of the author explaining the article, a sound +bite, or what have you. Where would one get a DTD for this? + +\[DB] Much the same as the maths. A tag that says \verb"<sound>" and +an attribute which says which encoding scheme you are using. + +\[LB] There is an application of SGML called HyTime which is (about +to become?) an ISO Standard. It defines time-based media of all +kinds and also different architectures within which you can associate +events happening in time. There is one product that can function +against HyTime specifications, it is something to watch out for. +There is in the TEI Guidelines a simplified version of some HyTime +concepts. + +\[DB] In the latest issue of EPodd there is a paper with the title +{\em Why Use HyTime?} + +\[Angus Duggan] +\question +Adobe put a lot of effort into Acrobat as a static encapsulation +format, able to reproduce the exact form of documents. Will this in +the future be important, or will content be all? Will the first +published form of the document be important? + +\[DE] For archival purposes things like Acrobat are very useful, +because they can encapsulate exactly how a document looked. For +other things, such as database access and searching it is the content +which is more important. So you might want two different electronic +forms of the document. Also, the printed and on-screen versions of +the document might be formatted differently. + +\[Angus Duggan] +\question +If we want to represent content and we do want keep the original form +it was published in, then obviously Acrobat solves the one problem +and SGML the other. What thoughts about document formats which +maintain both equally as well? + +\[LB] I'd like to question one of your premises. You talk about the +orginal form of the document. I think we're going to forget what that +is very soon. I don't know what the original form of the TEI +guidelines as published is. It was produced as an SGML document. At +home it is white letters on a black background. In the office black +on a white. In yellow on green when I was in Chicago. This was the +authoring. Similar remarks apply to the printing, on US and UK sized +paper. We had to do some fiddling around with the page numbers, as +you can imagine. There is another version of the guidelines which is +equally authorative and has exactly the same content, and that exists +on a DynaText screen. It has no page numbers at all. I'm trying to +make the point that I don't know which is the original form. They're +all equally valid. + +\[MK] When authors have their references in the article they often +refer to an article in a book by its page number. How on earth will +you make a reference to a location in an electronic document which +does not have page numbers? + +\[LB] By referring to the logical organisation of the text. +Paragraph~38 within division~3 of etc. + +\[MK] I'm sure that we will eventually have a combined product which +will have the format and all the structure in it from the SGML. All +in one product. Because there's so much more you can do with +that than you can with just PDF. The problem, as David Brailsford +mentioned this morning, is the Brand-X between the SGML and the PDF. +Until we can resolve that problem we can get to PDF, but not via the +generic route, which is what we as publishers want. + +\[Allan Reese] +About chasing up a reference. Page numbers are +physical objects, and when the document changes the physical indexing +is out of date. With electronic documents you will go just by +keyword and content indexing. You won't have to know where it is. +You just say I want the paper by Fred Smith or whoever. + +\[MK] That works when you are searching an electronic product from +another electronic product. It won't work from a paper to an +electronic product. + +\[Angus Duggan] +Intermediate version of documents. If people are +publishing on the Internet, if you put a content link in a document to +a document being revised, this may change or break the link. So you +need to have links to particular versions of particular documents. + +\[David Coton] +Chapters and verses are a menace. We are looking at how to regard +text in an object-oriented way. One big probelm with such a scheme +is that Bible text has two hierarchical structures. It has chapter - +verse structure, and it has section - paragraph - sentence structure. +Both are useful, both are valid. Both are in different circumstances +necessary. But the two do not coincide. Any object-oriented system +has difficulty with that. There are ways round it. We are looking +at introducing small enough units of text to give coincident +boundaries. SGML also has a problem with this. I'm told that the +standard allows for dual hierarchies. However, none of the existing +tools implement it. + +\[DB] There is only one product I've seen that supports this CONCUR +feature, which is the Mark-it parser, which is quite old. This +problem is discussed in the TEI guidelines. I don't think this is an +SGML problem. It is a characteristic of textual materials that they +can be organised in many different ways. This is inherent in the +nature of text. + +\[Jonathan Fine] +\question +I'm not sure I should be asking this question. What future for +typography? + +\[MK] If you believe the formatted original will continue, not +replaced by a large amorphous glob of text, there still is a case +for typography. It is very important to read something, to +understand how it's put together. Reading off a screen is difficult +anyway. Typography is purely there to allow you to read something +easily and quickly. I can't see any reason why it should disappear. +Especially as I still believe paper will be around for a while. + +\[LB] I think that typography is hard, hard, difficult and very +important. There are so many people clamouring in the Web and other +electronic marketplaces, that anything that stands out will be +enormously important. One of the skills conspicuously missing on the +Web is good typographic understanding. The skills needed to present +stuff effectively and well in the electronic medium are really an +outgrowth from the skills the typographers have developed in the +past. + +\[DP] Typography is one aspect, but information design is perhaps an +even more important. We've hardly covered information design. If +more and more people are putting things on the Web and not thinking +about how they design the document, then the morass of information +overload is going to get worse and worse. + +\[DB] If you go to \verb"www.whitehouse.gov" you'll find that it has +been done by a professional graphics designer. That really makes it +stand out on the Web. + +\[Mary Dyson] Can I add to that? Typography on the screen. Have we +got it well sussed? I don't think we have yet. To go back to the +old chestnut, it's not necessarily just transferring the same +principles. Italics are not terribly good for emphasis on screen. So +you want perceptual equivalents of legibility. + +\[DP] We've come to a good point to stop. One final thing. The Web +assumes one model of access to information. There are many others, +such as browsing, which are virtually impossible on the Web. Maybe we +should be thinking about how other forms of access to information are +possible. Can I thank the four people on the panel and everyone +else, particularly the speakers. + +\end{small} +\egroup +\end{Article} |